Interview with Anthony d'Offay
We are thrilled to announce that in January 2010, Manchester Art Gallery is to present part of ARTIST ROOMS, a prestigious new collection of international contemporary art which was gifted in 2008 to the nation by Anthony d'Offay, one of the most important and influential art dealers of our time. D'Offay who began dealing in London in the late 1960s, represented and worked with major artists including Rachel Whiteread, Ron Mueck, Jasper Johns, Gilbert & George, Anselm Kiefer, Willem de Kooning, Lucian Freud, Andy Warhol and Joseph Beuys.
Assisted by the National Heritage Memorial Fund (NHMF), The Art Fund and the Scottish and British Governments, this gift, of over 725 works by seminal artists, is one of the largest ever made to museums in Britain. Jointly managed and cared for by National Galleries of Scotland and Tate, the concept of ARTIST ROOMS is built around individual rooms devoted to particular artists. Many of the rooms were conceived as specific installations by the artists themselves and all have been assembled so that the work of important contemporary artists can be seen and appreciated in depth.
Here Anthony d'Offay talks with Leila Aitken about ARTIST ROOMS, collecting and what art means to him:
LA: Your very generous gift of over 725 artworks is obviously one of the largest gifts ever made to museums in Britain. What made you want to give away your world-class collection?
AD: The collection was made with the intention of making these rooms, and it was always done with the idea of their going into the public domain. These were not works of art which we had in the dining room at home. They are room installations and they are trying to tell a very specific story about an artist. If you look at the rooms in the Tate, for example, they have a certain intensity to them which is to do with how the works relate to one another. At the moment or this year there will be more than 30 rooms all over the country.
LA: What kind of impact do you think this gift and the exhibition of these of these works will have on museums and galleries throughout the UK and their audiences.
AD: There are seven ARTIST ROOMS in Tate Modern on view for a year and if you think of Ed Ruscha, Jeff Koons, Robert Therrien, Andy Warhol, Anselm Kiefer, Jannis Kounellis, if they have a show, for example, in London in the West End, maybe their works are are seen by 10, 000 people. Here the rooms might be seen by 2, 3, 4 million people. It is a very different experience. Also, when they're seen by the public, the public knows that the works belong to them. This
collection belongs very specifically to the United Kingdom and is looked after and cared for by Tate and the National Galleries of Scotland. That is an entirely new concept.
LA: And the wonderful thing is that these works are available on loan, not just to places in London such as Tate but also to the regional galleries whose audiences do not always have the opportunity to have exposure to this kind of quality of modern and contemporary art.
AD: The artists we have chosen generally are well-known internationally so that young people have the opportunity to see something they probably couldn't see unless they came to London or possibly to Edinburgh. So I hope this is democratic in that sense. One of the conditions of the gift is that the public should not be charged to see the rooms. You know, what is the joy of museums in the United Kingdom? The joy is that they are free. What is the reverse side of that? The reverse side of that is that there is very little money for acquisitions. Tate and the National Galleries of Scotland, have very limited budget for acquisitions. And those acquisitions have to compete with classic art, sometimes Old Masters, very often English artists. Does one want to buy a painting by Hogarth or a sculpture by
Damien Hirst? It is a very difficult situation - a very difficult choice.
LA: For many regional museums and galleries in this country, unless they are taking a risk and buying artists right at the beginning of their career or getting gifts from collectors like yourself, they simply do not have the funds to acquire work by major artists.
AD: I may be completely wrong but I have the sense that the commitment to museums in this country is not the number one priority of most (commercial)galleries. Up until the last year before my gallery closed in 2001, over 60% of our sales were made to museums, of course many many of them abroad. We always considered we had two objectives: one was to put on shows for young people that they wouldn't otherwise see; the other was to sell to museums so that for the long term we were doing the best that we could for the artworks.
LA: Over what period of time have you put this collection together and also what was the first piece you acquired?
AD: I would say over 30 years and probably the first works we acquired were drawings by Joseph Beuys.
LA: You began dealing in the late 1960s and you became one of the most important and influential art dealers the art world has seen but how did you first become involved in the art world? What made you want to go in that direction?
AD: I was, like lots of young people, lonely, dazed and confused and I found some sort of comfort in terms of culture in the museum in Leicester. I felt by visiting the museum I could reach some sort of resolution to the dilemmas one faces as a teenager. There was some sort of feeling that one was approaching the truth. What you want is to start to asking yourself questions because out of that comes
creativity. The whole point of culture and contemporary art is that by looking at great art you grow up. You increase your creativity by asking questions, and by
getting closer to truth. Great artists deal with truths.
LA: Finally, which work of the many you have acquired over the year means the most to you and why?
AD: That is a question I can't answer because it is like saying which of your twelve daughters is the prettiest! If you want to see eleven glum faces... I think, I believe, that in the seven rooms in Tate Modern and the two rooms in Tate Britain, there are some things that seem to be signature works. Take for example, the Jeff Koons 'Encased' piece (with vacuum cleaners) and 'Winter Bears'. Those are two works which once you've seen them, you remember them. The sacks of Jannis Kounellis, remember those sacks from 1969, (sacks containing lentils, rice, peas, corn, beans, potatoes and coffee), that is one of the great signature pieces of Arte Povera. That great green painting from 1971with the cellist sitting beside it playing Bach also seems to me like a signature piece. Those pieces stand the test of time, stand the test of being strong, powerful and evocative wherever they are. Whether they are in Tokyo, Toronto, Manchester or London you know they are still great and important things. The Kiefer installation 'Palmsonntag' at Tate is a great work and, in the end, the great things you see stick in your memory. They seem pretty good and interesting when you see first them, but then they stick around in your mind over time. You feel that they work very well in the straight-forward level of seeing them in a museum but they also do their work over time in your mind. And that thing about greatness and about truth, it is important.
I just hope and pray that it starts a process for young people of asking questions, growing up, thinking. That is what it's all about. It isn't about wonderfully special works of art or collectors. It's to do with education. I like going into the Warhol show (the Warhol ARTIST ROOM at Tate Modern) and seeing twelve young children sitting on the floor drawing the hamburger painting hung on top of Andy's cow wallpaper. I can't think of anything more wonderfully absurd than that! Andy would have loved it.
LA: Thank you Anthony. It has been an absolute pleasure and we look forward to seeing your show here in January 2010.
This interview took place on 6 July 2009
Assisted by the National Heritage Memorial Fund (NHMF), The Art Fund and the Scottish and British Governments, this gift, of over 725 works by seminal artists, is one of the largest ever made to museums in Britain. Jointly managed and cared for by National Galleries of Scotland and Tate, the concept of ARTIST ROOMS is built around individual rooms devoted to particular artists. Many of the rooms were conceived as specific installations by the artists themselves and all have been assembled so that the work of important contemporary artists can be seen and appreciated in depth.
Here Anthony d'Offay talks with Leila Aitken about ARTIST ROOMS, collecting and what art means to him:
LA: Your very generous gift of over 725 artworks is obviously one of the largest gifts ever made to museums in Britain. What made you want to give away your world-class collection?
AD: The collection was made with the intention of making these rooms, and it was always done with the idea of their going into the public domain. These were not works of art which we had in the dining room at home. They are room installations and they are trying to tell a very specific story about an artist. If you look at the rooms in the Tate, for example, they have a certain intensity to them which is to do with how the works relate to one another. At the moment or this year there will be more than 30 rooms all over the country.
LA: What kind of impact do you think this gift and the exhibition of these of these works will have on museums and galleries throughout the UK and their audiences.
AD: There are seven ARTIST ROOMS in Tate Modern on view for a year and if you think of Ed Ruscha, Jeff Koons, Robert Therrien, Andy Warhol, Anselm Kiefer, Jannis Kounellis, if they have a show, for example, in London in the West End, maybe their works are are seen by 10, 000 people. Here the rooms might be seen by 2, 3, 4 million people. It is a very different experience. Also, when they're seen by the public, the public knows that the works belong to them. This
collection belongs very specifically to the United Kingdom and is looked after and cared for by Tate and the National Galleries of Scotland. That is an entirely new concept.
LA: And the wonderful thing is that these works are available on loan, not just to places in London such as Tate but also to the regional galleries whose audiences do not always have the opportunity to have exposure to this kind of quality of modern and contemporary art.
AD: The artists we have chosen generally are well-known internationally so that young people have the opportunity to see something they probably couldn't see unless they came to London or possibly to Edinburgh. So I hope this is democratic in that sense. One of the conditions of the gift is that the public should not be charged to see the rooms. You know, what is the joy of museums in the United Kingdom? The joy is that they are free. What is the reverse side of that? The reverse side of that is that there is very little money for acquisitions. Tate and the National Galleries of Scotland, have very limited budget for acquisitions. And those acquisitions have to compete with classic art, sometimes Old Masters, very often English artists. Does one want to buy a painting by Hogarth or a sculpture by
Damien Hirst? It is a very difficult situation - a very difficult choice.
LA: For many regional museums and galleries in this country, unless they are taking a risk and buying artists right at the beginning of their career or getting gifts from collectors like yourself, they simply do not have the funds to acquire work by major artists.
AD: I may be completely wrong but I have the sense that the commitment to museums in this country is not the number one priority of most (commercial)galleries. Up until the last year before my gallery closed in 2001, over 60% of our sales were made to museums, of course many many of them abroad. We always considered we had two objectives: one was to put on shows for young people that they wouldn't otherwise see; the other was to sell to museums so that for the long term we were doing the best that we could for the artworks.
LA: Over what period of time have you put this collection together and also what was the first piece you acquired?
AD: I would say over 30 years and probably the first works we acquired were drawings by Joseph Beuys.
LA: You began dealing in the late 1960s and you became one of the most important and influential art dealers the art world has seen but how did you first become involved in the art world? What made you want to go in that direction?
AD: I was, like lots of young people, lonely, dazed and confused and I found some sort of comfort in terms of culture in the museum in Leicester. I felt by visiting the museum I could reach some sort of resolution to the dilemmas one faces as a teenager. There was some sort of feeling that one was approaching the truth. What you want is to start to asking yourself questions because out of that comes
creativity. The whole point of culture and contemporary art is that by looking at great art you grow up. You increase your creativity by asking questions, and by
getting closer to truth. Great artists deal with truths.
LA: Finally, which work of the many you have acquired over the year means the most to you and why?
AD: That is a question I can't answer because it is like saying which of your twelve daughters is the prettiest! If you want to see eleven glum faces... I think, I believe, that in the seven rooms in Tate Modern and the two rooms in Tate Britain, there are some things that seem to be signature works. Take for example, the Jeff Koons 'Encased' piece (with vacuum cleaners) and 'Winter Bears'. Those are two works which once you've seen them, you remember them. The sacks of Jannis Kounellis, remember those sacks from 1969, (sacks containing lentils, rice, peas, corn, beans, potatoes and coffee), that is one of the great signature pieces of Arte Povera. That great green painting from 1971with the cellist sitting beside it playing Bach also seems to me like a signature piece. Those pieces stand the test of time, stand the test of being strong, powerful and evocative wherever they are. Whether they are in Tokyo, Toronto, Manchester or London you know they are still great and important things. The Kiefer installation 'Palmsonntag' at Tate is a great work and, in the end, the great things you see stick in your memory. They seem pretty good and interesting when you see first them, but then they stick around in your mind over time. You feel that they work very well in the straight-forward level of seeing them in a museum but they also do their work over time in your mind. And that thing about greatness and about truth, it is important.
I just hope and pray that it starts a process for young people of asking questions, growing up, thinking. That is what it's all about. It isn't about wonderfully special works of art or collectors. It's to do with education. I like going into the Warhol show (the Warhol ARTIST ROOM at Tate Modern) and seeing twelve young children sitting on the floor drawing the hamburger painting hung on top of Andy's cow wallpaper. I can't think of anything more wonderfully absurd than that! Andy would have loved it.
LA: Thank you Anthony. It has been an absolute pleasure and we look forward to seeing your show here in January 2010.
This interview took place on 6 July 2009
